Madam: Julie Moya & NYC’s Most Famous Brothel

When Julie Met Britney...

Em Vaughn and Ben Skye Season 1 Episode 7

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This episode features Britney, a sex worker and long time friend of Julie. She offers a nuanced perspective on sex work that counters common stereotypes.

• Brittany’s journey and experiences in the sex industry
• The complexities of relationships and discretion within sex work
• How social media glamorizes the industry while neglecting its realities
• The emotional labor involved in providing intimacy to clients
• The significance of community and mutual support among sex workers

You're having trouble hearing Britney and Julie's conversations you can read a transcript here:
supplement.madampod.com/e07/Episode-7-Transcript.pdf

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Speaker 1:

you have to be careful and I would never tell a boyfriend that you know what I mean. I mean it was that time a boyfriend that she met in that business maybe or something, and they know we'd like to have a great relationship like that, you know. But but it's just you know, since we're from nowhere, don't tell them things like that, you you know why not?

Speaker 2:

They'll treat you different.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, they'll treat you different.

Speaker 3:

Hi everyone and welcome back to Madam, the podcast about Julie Moya and New York City's most famous. Bravo, I'm Ben Skye and sitting across from me, as always, is the amazing and talented Ms M Vaughn.

Speaker 2:

Hey y'all.

Speaker 3:

So today's episode has been a long time in the making. I know you've been working very, very hard on editing it and putting it together. We teased a little bit about what this episode was going to be about in the previous episode when we asked about one of the people that used to work with Julie a lot, whose name was Brittany. Now Brittany attended a couple of our podcast recording sessions before. She has become very close to Julie over the years. When Julie was having surgery earlier this year, she was basically by her bed in the hospital the whole time. So we thought it would be really interesting and informative to bring in and talk to somebody who used to work with Julie on a day-to-day basis.

Speaker 2:

We thought to give a little bit more color to the podcast. It would be beneficial for us and our listeners and Julie if we had someone who is close to her, talking to her and about her life and what she's like as a person, have been just that, and we wanted to add more dimension and bring in Brittany, who's known Julie for a really long time and in lots of different capacities.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, so my first encounter with Julie was when I went to visit her brothel many, many years ago. It was one of my first experiences going to visit a sex worker and while I wasn't really yet an ally and didn't know very much about the world of sex work, I do remember meeting Brittany.

Speaker 3:

Uh about, uh, gosh, it must have been 20 years ago or something yeah, she's someone you never forget that's right, and I think one of the reasons we were really excited about bringing her in is that when she attended some podcast recording sessions and tried desperately to sit quietly while we recorded our conversation with Julie, we would occasionally look over at her and we could see her just desperate to jump in and tell a story or offer her opinion on what Julie was saying or what the two of you were talking about. She is a very high energy person.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, love that.

Speaker 3:

Love that too. With that said, I think it's really interesting that when she first starts out this conversation, it's her first time on a podcast and I get it, but she seems very reserved.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I think she was nervous. It's hard to have your voice recorded and I understand that.

Speaker 3:

For sure. Now, one of the reasons that this episode has taken so long to record is that Brittany and Julie have an amazing dynamic. When I was listening to the recording that we did, they talk over each other, they finish each other's sentences, and I was reminded I'm a lot older than you, but I was reminded of this movie called when Harry Met Sally, where they have these interviews with these old married couples who basically, you know, sort of aggressively but also with love, talk over each other and never let the other one say what they're finished saying, but clearly care for each other so deeply. Now, unfortunately, that made it pretty hard to edit, so we couldn't use some of that because it just sounded like chaos. But I know that you've done a really careful job of pulling that relationship out of what we did record and I'm really excited to give people some insight into that relationship.

Speaker 2:

And I will just say I dated a Gen Xer who showed me when Harry met Sally, so I was aware of the film.

Speaker 3:

Thank God for that person. Yeah, yeah, thank God.

Speaker 2:

So I was aware of the film Thank God for that person.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, yeah, thank God. So without further ado.

Speaker 2:

Let's get into the lore of Britney. How has the industry been for you? How long have you? I don't know, I think maybe 22 years? Have you been like NYC based no, seattle.

Speaker 4:

I worked everywhere Seattle, I started in Seattle, everywhere. I love it, yeah. Yeah, I don't think I want to do anything. I mean I would love to, but this is what I. I like this. What do you like about it? The tension, the sex, the money, the community. You get to meet so many different people. It's fun. It's like dating. Have fun, make money. Think about it. They're going to go to a bar and spend way more money. Let's come here, just give me the money. Let's just have a tour. There's been times where it was rough, but it's always have enough to order to get to. I mean, there's been times where it was rough, but it's always been good to me. Overall, I don't think I've had a lot of bad things. The good outweighs the bad a bit. It's fun, it's exciting.

Speaker 2:

What do you think when you hear her say that it's?

Speaker 1:

good, I mean I'm happy for her. Yeah, I mean because some girls don't have that kind of like outlook.

Speaker 4:

So you know, I might sometimes be addicted to it too. Yeah, yeah Can you say more about that. It's also like dependable. It's always there, you know, even no matter what, say I'm messed up with something all my life and I have nothing. I just go stick out my thumb and you know start from there or something.

Speaker 2:

Is that something that you like about the industry or something it's kind?

Speaker 4:

of comfortability with me.

Speaker 4:

I love everything about the industry, except for, you know, I mean, I can't even say that I love everything about it, even the roughs and ups and downs and the drama and the twists and turns, and the slow days, the fun days, the chaotic days, but it's fun especially. You know I've been had, I've been blessed to, you know, be here with around, like be working with Julie, working with other places and being in a place like Ben's, you know, people meeting people. It's just been really great. I would. Yeah, that's it.

Speaker 3:

This first part of the interview is, in a way, one of the more interesting parts of the interview to me and, I guess, one of the things I want to ask you, because you work in sex work do you love the industry?

Speaker 2:

Do. I love the industry. I mean, I can only speak to my experience. And when we're talking about the sex industry in general, it's kind of hard because that is so, uh, complex. You know absolutely. And britney, like she said, you know over two decades in the industry she's done a lot yeah you know, so she knows better way better than me, you know.

Speaker 3:

But do you love it?

Speaker 2:

But do you?

Speaker 3:

love it. Well, I guess, to not ask quite as glib of a question, how do you feel about your relationship with the sex industry?

Speaker 2:

My relationship to it is pretty good.

Speaker 3:

I don't know that's so complicated it is yeah, I guess here's what I'm getting at, I think In our first episode, I think one of the things people really were attracted to was how we spoke about the sex industry. Our admiration for the people who do it which remains, of course, part of the process of doing this podcast has led me to have some perhaps more in-depth conversations with a lot of my friends who are sex workers, and, while my admiration remains, I think that, for one reason or another, people have started to feel more comfortable expressing their complicated relationship with the industry and the work, and it's something that you and Julie touch on a little bit right, and I guess it's something that, as I was listening to this, I wondered if I was giving, if we were giving representation the difficult part of the sex industry. You know, to uh to how hard it can be to do the work you know?

Speaker 3:

Um, yeah, you know the twists and turns and ups and downs, as Brittany calls it, but I think it's fair to say it can often be a little bit more than that A lot of people doing it, even if they have a very positive, healthy, which I believe I know you do. Um, yeah, I'm in awe of it often, you know, but the work is hard, as you said before.

Speaker 2:

you know, work can be hard yeah, the work is hard, I mean, but I also feel like life is hard sure, yeah, no, of course that's not easy being a coal miner either, right?

Speaker 2:

yeah, yeah, absolutely yeah I mean, and and yes, like sex work has its own like caveats and complications that a lot of other professions you know don't have. Um, you know, for one thing, the stigma, the criminality around it are just two of the bigger issues. I mean, I can see it from Brittany's perspective. I've had a really blessed journey with being in the industry and there is the attention and the money part. There are, I guess, glamorous aspects of it. I wouldn't say it's definitely not a glamorous profession, but there can be like glamorous aspects to it.

Speaker 2:

For some people, you know, some people, it's not that at all. You know, it's just a means to get by for a lot of people actually. But for me it's become my profession and I don't know I have a complicated relationship with that, but at the end of the day it allows me to do things in my life that I think that I would not be able to otherwise, just because of the way that workforce is structured under capitalism. Because of the way that workforce is structured under capitalism, to have, you know, a lot of autonomy in my day to day life is not something that most people get to have and I feel very blessed about it and it's enabled me to figure out what I actually want to do with my life that is not influenced by the workforce.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's why I called it one of the few. What do they call it? The renegade act or whatever rebellion act? One of the few remaining acts of rebellion? Something like that. Yeah, yeah, radical.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, a few radical acts, yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. But I don't have to feed into this Western idea of what life is supposed to look like. Right, I can actually live life in a more organic way and figure out my dreams from there, and that's exactly what I've done. And the other part, too, is that I didn't necessarily know going into it, but I know now. I like to make people feel good. I like to, if it is possible for me, to, help someone with an issue or help heal them to some capacity. Um, you know, physically or mentally, I, I really do love that aspect of sex work. You know it a lot of times it isn't that, you know, like it's just transaction and semen on my clothes and hair.

Speaker 2:

But you know, sometimes it is this really really beautiful bond that I get to have with someone and I get to help them, and that feels really good and get paid well for it. Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 3:

I often think about sex workers partially in the same regard, uh, as social workers, right, um, which isn't that they are asked to sometimes carry, carry someone's trauma around sex. And the Lord knows, in uh Christian fucking America, there was a lot of trauma around sex. Obviously, you are wise and strong and intuitive when it comes to humans.

Speaker 3:

But I guess what I want to cop to is is initially, in those first episodes, only seeing the admirable, radical, empowered act which it is, but maybe not making room for some of the experiences that people have to have on a day-to-day basis. Yeah, absolutely you know.

Speaker 4:

So it's like you got different girls from different walks of life, different aspects. I have no idea what they're doing, and then they're usually influenced because of how they started doing this from being influenced for social media, I would not tell the boyfriend nothing, it was no one's business.

Speaker 1:

you, you know, I would say I was doing something else, whether it be a phone person somewhere or whatever I was doing right. But these girls they get caught like on purpose. You have to be careful and I would never tell a boyfriend that you know what I?

Speaker 1:

mean, I mean, unless it was that time a boyfriend that you met in that business, maybe or something. And they know, when you guys have a great relationship like that, you know. But if it's just you know some square from nowhere you don't tell them things like that. You know why not they'll treat you different. Yeah, they'll treat you different. A lot of them have different beliefs and different you know. They'll be like oh wow, she's fucking some other guy. They don't realize it's just for business. Even my grandson is like she's fucking some other guy. They don't realize it's just for business. Even my grandson is like oh, my God, that's horrible.

Speaker 2:

Oh, my goodness, yeah. So is that how you feel as well, brittany? Like in relationships you don't. I don't tell them.

Speaker 4:

You tell them I don't tell them what I do, I just tell them I do whatever it takes.

Speaker 4:

Let them think what they want. I could be a stripper, I could be a bartender. I'm not going to discuss what I do with other men, with somebody I have love interest with and I don't even. I'm tired of relationships, right, it's too much. I have to focus on work and the clients because the boyfriend just gets in the way. Energy, drama, tears, can't find the things. I miss it, but I'm good. Why would I go outside and do it for free when I can go to work and do it for money and have fun?

Speaker 1:

It's just I don't know. It's weird. Some of them just don't get it. It's not just laying there fucking. I just ask them what would you like me to do while we're in here? And I just take direction from him. I'm like that's not what it is. You know, you can't just do that. That's just very boring. Right, and that's not like it's not interacting really, yeah, yeah, it's just you know being like at his service.

Speaker 3:

And they want to know you're having fun too. And at the beginning of this segment, brittany talks about social influencers and I don't know. I think that it's just something that again, because I'm old, that maybe I don't quite understand what she's getting at as far as how that I don't know may affect the relationship with the industry.

Speaker 4:

I don't know.

Speaker 3:

I just wonder if you can offer a little more insight, at least for me, but maybe for our listeners.

Speaker 2:

I think Brittany was saying how I guess social media has negatively well in some cases negatively impacted the sex work industry. It's complicated, obviously, but basically there's sex work social media influencers or maybe they're not explicitly calling themselves that, but there's Sugar Baby Influencers, that sort of thing, and it's like day in the life of a Sugar Baby, day in the life of a stripper. I personally, I got really hooked on strip talk during the pandemic.

Speaker 2:

I loved watching girls talk about what they were wearing going to the club, how much money they would make an hour. Some of them were real about it, but I would say a lot of it.

Speaker 3:

I mean, it is glamour, it's glamorization they're showing the good stuff, just what we were talking about before, right. Yeah like the YSL bags and the bracelets and the red bottoms and this luxurious life, the thing that social media always does Right Perfect hair, perfect skin, perfect body.

Speaker 2:

And yeah, I mean yes, what social media does is, yeah, glamorize things and and that's particularly harmful in sex work and I think that's kind of what I interpret as britney's saying is, it's not that, um, you know, because social media can be a great platform for providers to make money and get clients.

Speaker 3:

I mean I don't think. I think this sex industry has changed so much because of you all being able to connect with each other now.

Speaker 2:

Absolutely.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, that's what has changed it from what it was like when Julie came into it, right?

Speaker 2:

Right, exactly, but it can be dangerous. Like you come into this industry thinking that maybe it's going to be a little trauma-free, that I think there's this idea, that I think what Brittany is saying is that, with social media influencers in this way, portray it as it's something that you don't really have to work hard at, that you don't really have to, that guys will just kind of give you free money and give you free trips and give you free bags, and I mean, if you look at femdoms, that is something that exists.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, yeah, I feel like a lot of them are probably bragging a lot too right, like that all feels a little like a constructive image a lot of the time when I you know run across their accounts.

Speaker 2:

Definitely yeah, and I remember I was sitting in like a sex worker support group. We have like community meetings once a month here and this older woman who'd been a sex worker over 10 years done a lot of things she was talking about this and she was like sometimes you just got to suck a dick.

Speaker 4:

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.

Speaker 2:

I mean not in a.

Speaker 3:

No one should force you to suck a dick. No, no, but in this context.

Speaker 2:

It's like I got paid you gotta fucking babe like you, maybe you could luck into something, yeah, but even that it's, you're dealing with very, very toxic men, very toxic men, very toxic people and their relationships, their lives, you're. I mean, you're playing with some really hard shit. And if you think that sex work is easy or you just are going to get some free money, maybe here and there but that's also has to do with privilege and right place, right time, it's yeah, you're going to have to work.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, yeah, hey, here you are with a platform, you crazy influencer, but uh, but I guess what do you wish they were talking about? Um, that maybe would present a more realistic viewpoint of the industry. I mean it's because perhaps I'm like it is more than just sucking it. I think it's encountering these people that often that you're talking about, you know, toxic males, or I mean, or traumatized male, or you know. You know, what do you wish they were talking about? With regards to why it's not all Gucci bags, you know?

Speaker 2:

I mean well cause Gucci bags. Do not fill your spiritual void. Yeah, it is a 24 seven profession.

Speaker 3:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

It is a 24 seven thing being a sex worker, um, because because of the stigma and criminality around it, you're always having to kind of watch your back. Um, you know, what are you going to do about your family, people that you're connected with, things like that? How is this going to affect your future? And also, yeah, I mean kind of being in danger and and there's no, if you do kind of find yourself in a whole situation with the client, I mean there's not much you can do legally. There's just a lot of things that can go wrong and a lot of that that do go wrong for some people. But yeah, and then also, like you're having having to aesthetically, uh, kind of um, manipulate your body a lot.

Speaker 2:

I guess I should speak from my own experience, because there's a lot of providers that they're sure they're like I don't fuck with my yeah, yeah, any of my body hair, like I'm not changing any of myself Like clients are just going to come to me as the, which I really appreciate.

Speaker 2:

But I guess in my line of work it's it's having to keep up with my mental state constantly, but also like my physical state, always having to think about my body, what I look like, how I'm being perceived, what I smell like like, who I'm talking to and am I, am I saying like, I feel like I live like four different lives. You know, and you know, part of that's like my decision, but it is something that's I feel is all consuming. And then the whole relationship part, yeah, I all-consuming.

Speaker 3:

And then the whole relationship part. Yeah, I was gonna say, um, I you know gucci bags don't fill your spiritual void, but theoretically, love should right, um, and one of the things you're asked to do is, uh, performatively love right or um, uh convince people. I mean, which I know, at least from some of the stuff that you've told me and others have told me sometimes there is real intimacy there, but I also know that a lot of sex workers who are friends of mine have very complicated relationships with love and intimacy.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3:

And I think that that dovetails really nicely into the next thing they were talking about. And Brittany said something that I've heard from so many sex workers Uh, I don't even want to bother with relationships anymore. It's just too much, you know. Yeah, but then what is your relationship with love in general? Right, Right. Yeah, yeah, I can like providers.

Speaker 2:

They can say you know, I don't even want to bother with relationships, relationships and then also clients. They seek providers because they don't want to, absolutely, absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, I mean the motives are are different on each side, but, um, definitely I've had periods where I've felt just like britney. It's like why the hell would I go meet some random dude on a dating app and hook up with him for free Excuse me, have bad sex, when I could just get paid for that?

Speaker 3:

You know, has that performative aspect ever like complicated relationship for you, you know.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I think so and I've I've talked to other workers about this where they're like they don't mean to do it, but sometimes you know people who they're dating can tell of like, oh okay, you just switched into worker mode. You know, and I've probably done that a lot with people I've dated Sure.

Speaker 3:

I mean we all switch into performative modes with all of our relationships right. It's just a very specific one.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and something that I find really interesting, julie is very adamant about you don't tell the boyfriend, and I think that is kind of like an old school way of kind of talking about it. I mean, I definitely do have very good friends and they have been with their partners for multiple years and they've not told them yeah, and that's still common um for me personally.

Speaker 2:

and you know, I have relationship, I, I have issues with relationships. Sure, I try to be yeah, I do try to be upfront about it. It's always kind of that balance of like, when do I say it, you know, or how do I kind of lead in that conversation?

Speaker 3:

and often it would, I would just kind of end up dating clients, um, because they already knew what they were getting into. Yeah, that's also a common story, I think.

Speaker 2:

Yeah definitely um, but I think at this place in my life now I've been moving away from doing that just for different reasons. But yeah, the the line portion I, I can't do it. I don't think that you need to or I don't think that I need to be over descriptive about everything. I think that what's important is that I regularly get tested and I know my boundaries and I'm not like um passing anything to a partner. I think like that's bottom line. You know. You know we're taught to like associate love with possession.

Speaker 3:

Yes, I was just. I was just going to make that point Exactly.

Speaker 2:

Exactly so. It's going to be hard.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, um, I have dated a number of sex workers. Um, that have been very meaningful, loving relationships. I similarly hope and want them to talk about it with me. Yeah, choices about what you tell about your life to who?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and if you're the type of provider that has really strict boundaries with clients.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

I mean hell yeah. I mean, it might just be you are getting money and like yeah of course the feelings are not flowing, you know. But I know, for me personally, my emotional boundaries are a little bit porous. So there is, you know, oftentimes like there's real stuff involved. So, whether I want there to be or not, usually I don't but yeah for me, I have to be transparent about it. Yeah, also like I want to be able to talk to them about my day and like exactly, yeah, just kind of skirt around.

Speaker 2:

Well, I was here for six hours, but I have.

Speaker 3:

You know, I've been in so many relationships where you know you have to remember all the lies.

Speaker 4:

Then you're like oh God.

Speaker 3:

Exactly Such a nightmare. I get it. I get where they're coming from, especially with maybe less queer men than me, with dudes for whom having a woman is owning or possessing, and for women in that regard too.

Speaker 2:

As Julie said, some square from Delaware.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I would agree.

Speaker 2:

Very, very straight guy from the Midwest. Yeah, I mean, they usually can't handle it, you know.

Speaker 3:

We'd like to thank our sponsor, the Squares from Delaware.

Speaker 4:

You know I'd like to thank our sponsor, the Squares from Delaware. When you first meet a client, within the first minute he's going to tell you how he wants you to take his money. You have to just pay attention and listen and then, if you do it, if you're listening, he'll just give it all to you Interesting and he'll tell you he wanted me to make him like eat gum. And when the guy had came, the guy had came and I like got the gum.

Speaker 3:

Because I got the gum and I went to go like I wiped it on me and I wiped it on him, and I went to go wipe it on his mouth and he got hesitant and like was trying to fight me and I'm like, okay, you know what?

Speaker 4:

You look like you're getting a little scared. Let me back up a little bit. And then I realized well, you're just playing a game, you don't want this. Cause he's like I want you to make me suck the dick. So I'm like okay, he's like no, turning back. I'm like okay, she was like no, I don't think he wants it girl. I a fantasy.

Speaker 1:

It's something that gets them off. Whatever gets them off, whatever turns them on, it's not hurting you. So what if it's? So what if it's? Um, no big deal, right? I mean, it's just a fantasy. Who cares, right?

Speaker 4:

yeah, listen, I'd rather talk about it. Whatever disgusting little random thoughts are running through that disgusting man's head at the moment. Let's talk about it don't act on it I don't guys talk about kids and me being money daddy or okay, but at least you're here with me as an adult, not acting up, not really doing it.

Speaker 2:

Right.

Speaker 4:

I don't care, it's fun. And also some crazy stuff sometimes. Yeah, I said that oh what, I'm a rabbi, I don't have too much.

Speaker 2:

A rabbi. No, now you have to tell the story. This guy was Jewish.

Speaker 4:

And he wanted to role play and dirty talk and all kinds of stuff. And he was saying some wild stuff. So I took it up a notch and I was like, well, how about I just be the rabbi and I lift your dick a little bit?

Speaker 1:

And he was like, oh hell, no, forgive him, I'm not, you know, it's just a joke, okay.

Speaker 4:

That was a laugh, it's just a joke.

Speaker 2:

Oh, you took it too far.

Speaker 4:

Sometimes you Okay, that was a joke, you took it too far.

Speaker 2:

How do you deal with stress at work? I don't get stressed.

Speaker 4:

No, I don't.

Speaker 2:

Y'all are so funny Cause like I look at y'all and y'all are kind of opposite in a lot of ways. You know it's like what, how I've been getting to know Julie yeah, you're quiet, you want things and like you're over here like wanting to make you know energy happen and everything.

Speaker 1:

So when I need something crazy, you know where to go. Turn it up Brittany, Get it going Instigate this shit.

Speaker 4:

You're the instigator, I'm just the one that's like alright, let's throw some extra seed in there. Stir it up a little bit.

Speaker 2:

So y'all help balance each other out. Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1:

That's where the love is a little bit, so y'all help balance each other out Absolutely.

Speaker 2:

That's where the love is a little bit.

Speaker 4:

It's respect, it's more respect, it's always respect. Love is always good. It's all love, but it's respect. We respect each other. You need a leash. I was going to say that and a muzzle, definitely a muzzle.

Speaker 1:

A barf, a gag ball? She'll just keep it like but, you love that about her sometimes like when we went to go island and we had the little girl with her, like this granddaughter and little girl screamed when she if she doesn't get what she wants, so she started screaming.

Speaker 4:

I'm like I want my mom too, but,

Speaker 1:

screaming and everything, but the people started coming around and stalled. So we're in a lot of places together.

Speaker 4:

They left me in there and walked out, and I'm still there and I'm screaming.

Speaker 1:

And I'm screaming at all the ideas.

Speaker 4:

I'm looking for them. I get outside and I'm like where the hell did she go? And then here goes Kate. I was like there they go. No one's yet here on this map. It was hilarious. People were like not in the bathroom. They were like what the hell's going on? They were like what's going on in there On the bar? The mothers are laughing. It was hilarious.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 4:

Definitely need a little attention.

Speaker 2:

I'd love to go to Coney Island with y'all.

Speaker 4:

I took the little girl to the haunted house that was fucking awesome.

Speaker 1:

I said you shouldn't take her. Oh my God, she talked about that haunted house, for like three days she was scared in there. It was great.

Speaker 4:

Did you go to the haunted house at Coney Island? Great?

Speaker 2:

I literally just went for the first time today.

Speaker 4:

Oh, today you went to the zoo there's rabid wild wolves they're literally close enough to touch you and they spit air on you.

Speaker 2:

They looked so cool. I was like dang, I was a little kid.

Speaker 4:

I was like shit myself we didn't even get out of the car. She was like oh my, I was a little kid, I shit myself. Yeah, we didn't get out the door. She's like oh my grandma, I'm like you know, wait a second yeah.

Speaker 3:

The thing that I'm curious about is you know Julie talks about this a lot that it's just a fantasy. It's just a fantasy, right? You're just giving them a space to express that energy as opposed to engaging it in a more toxic way. But I'm curious what you think. Are you providing a space for that energy to be dissipated or expressed or processed, or is a sex worker doing that? I don't want you to speak for all sex workers, but you know, is it that kind of space, or are you creating more of a rehearsal room? You know, are you creating more of a practice at that kind of behavior? You know.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, that's something in my experience, I don't know. I've heard some providers say you know, yes, it kind of in a way gets it out of their system so that they don't do this with unwilling people, and then I've heard also that it does encourage them to do this in real life. I mean, I'd say my service is pretty vanilla. Mostly I will get asked to do humiliation and I did have a lot of discomfort with that when I first started doing it but um, why was it uncomfortable for you?

Speaker 2:

um, I'm just someone I was, you know, raised to be like very pleasing and you know I want to make people feel happy at the end of the day. I don't want them to be upset and, to say it actively, trying to be upsetting people like that feels like wrong in my body. I don't want to make anyone upset, but kind of like reading the experiences of dominatrix, dominatrixes and them kind of explaining like the humiliation fetish and how their turn like clients are turned on by that, um, I have like a more like complex understanding of that and so I'm more comfortable doing, you know, humiliating them if that's what they want. I mean, I would personally say no to race play and this is just like me.

Speaker 3:

Sure, of course, yeah, 100%.

Speaker 2:

I would just say the line is that if you don't feel comfortable doing it as a provider, then don't do it. You're allowed to have your own opinions and boundaries. That's right. That's right. I don't know like some people. It's easier for them to kind of engage in the, in the fetish and the humiliation or the race play or whatever that it is for them to like. What I primarily do is do the real ass like do the like intimacy.

Speaker 3:

Let's pretend we're in love.

Speaker 2:

Let's pretend we're in love. I'm like um, yeah.

Speaker 3:

Very turned on by what's happening.

Speaker 2:

Sometimes you know it's just person to person.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, sure, which segues delightfully into our next segment.

Speaker 1:

She really likes to help people and she tries to help remedy situations. You know what I mean. I don't like it.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, what's in it for you when you're helping someone, when I'm making everything like trying to run slower because I can't.

Speaker 4:

If it's chaotic and it's running a mess, I get off balance. I get making everything like trying to run slower because I can't. If it's chaotic and it's running a mess, I get off balance, I get off track and I get unfocused. It's smooth and everything is just you know.

Speaker 1:

But sometimes I try to stop helping these people because it comes back and you know what I mean. I try to stop helping all these assholes too much.

Speaker 2:

So it's the same thing again, right, like it's this balance that y'all have. It's. You know, you want to help, you want to and you get involved, maybe. And then Julie's like hey, listen, you know back off you know like it's it's a necessary, like balance that y'all have in terms of your relationship.

Speaker 4:

Absolutely yeah. She always looks out for my best interests. I have people in my personal life and she's like that person is no good for you, that person is bad, she's right.

Speaker 2:

Do y'all talk about your personal lives together?

Speaker 4:

Absolutely, because she's always got the advice. It's because she's not that scary she looks out advice, you know and it's because she doesn't. She's not that scary, she's looking, she looks after my best interest. I really appreciate that. You know it's not often you get somebody in your life that's looking out for your best interest you know, really like unconditionally right there with you it's a beautiful thing.

Speaker 2:

That is a beautiful thing, absolutely.

Speaker 4:

And when julie was kind of going through her health issues with surgery and whatnot, you were yeah, from the start, my work ethic, the way I deal with clients and the magic and beauty of it she elevated my service by 100% Because I was horrible. Oh my god, if you read my old reviews, I was bad. I was bad. No GFE condoms for handjobs, no kissing. Straight wham bam. Do you really want to get the fuck out? She's put into this industry and the way that she loves it and she sticks to it and appreciates it, like when she said things, I'm going to listen to her Because she's elite, she's you know she's going to last the week. There's nothing, it's. I'm going to listen to what she's got to say and as I listen, everything changed. My start getting better clients to regulars and long, like hourly, you know. Only they only see me like.

Speaker 2:

It completely changed everything okay, so julie's nuggets of wisdom. So your service and your um clients. They got better after you started listening to Julie, did you start enjoying your work more? You've always enjoyed it, but it's easier now.

Speaker 4:

It's easier now. It just flows after listening.

Speaker 2:

And you think that's because of Julie's kind of? Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 3:

The notion of Julie warning people not to care too much for people, of being a sort of like lookout for when people might be giving too much of themselves. Um, I think it's fair to say that that has come from a lifetime experience of julie caring a lot for people in her own way, um, as best she can, and so I think you know, as we have listened to her stories of sometimes caring too much for people and how that may have bit her to know that she still cares so much for this person, britney, but wants her to look out for herself yeah and if you're a sex worker, please take care of yourself, please yeah, I think it's a really beautiful thing when britney says you know, julie looks out for my best interests, and it's rare that you find someone that's truly looking after your best interests.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I mean, it just makes me very grateful that you know, like britney, I have very dear friends that feel like family to me, who are providers, and it's just like a different kind of you know, relationship and bond, that an intimacy that you're able to have with other people that do the same work as you. Though, like your lived experiences may be very different, like I'm sure Brittany's and Julie's are, they're from different generations.

Speaker 3:

They're from different generations, they're from different places.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, doing different things, they still are family to one another and it's just. It really shows how like important finding family is in this industry. And yeah, julie does care a lot, absolutely, and um is is looking out for britney and britney for her, so it was um beautiful getting to talk to them yeah, yeah, find your family.

Speaker 3:

Madam is produced and co-hosted by M Vaughn and Ben Skye. To subscribe to M's newsletter where she writes about her experiences as a sex worker, visit mvaughnme. That's E-M-V-A-U-G-H-N dot me. Our show is edited by Nate Naxian Ward, our music was composed by Timothy Reyes and, of course, the star of our show is the madam herself, julie Moya. Make sure to follow us on Twitter and support the show by joining our Patreon at patreoncom. Slash, madam pod. Our patrons will receive their own print of an original artwork by Julie herself and get access to special bonus interviews. Thanks so much for listening. We'll see you next time.

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